Far too many, and far too soon!

[SirChick]

I'm sorry but Javascript harder than PHP? Or did you just learn php first and then javascript so now javascript is harder cause you learnt PHP first?

Depending on the engine, yes. I'm making a graphical engine in JS, something you couldn't do in PHP its just not the language for it, you have to start thinking about things like frame rate, collision detection at pixel level, fractional pixel movements, shaders, particle engines...physics engine, path finding algorithms.

Really difficult to do it from scratch but i know how to now, its been a long and challenging 2 years of learning - making constant scripts that fail massively till i eventually got it to work, some times i had to disscet some C++ game source code to see how they approach things more efficiently :P

But i find it fun personally im sure others would lose patience very quickly. Then there is the networking using web sockets and long polling systems for "live action" between players, calling a server has to be efficient when you scale to many thousands of players, its difficult to know when making an engine, if it is the best it can be or if you have not heard about a better method.

I can assure you its ALOT harder than PHP if you use JS to its full capabilities. I'm not referring to things like Travian, which is heavy JS but it does not have a render engine, its simply manipulating the elements on the screen.

So yes JS is harder - depending on what you're using it for... if you use it to just make PHP browser game more slick then no.

[bluegman991]

Depending on the engine, yes. I'm making a graphical engine in JS, something you couldn't do in PHP its just not the language for it, you have to start thinking about things like frame rate, collision detection at pixel level, fractional pixel movements, shaders, particle engines...physics engine, path finding algorithms.

Really difficult to do it from scratch but i know how to now, its been a long and challenging 2 years of learning - making constant scripts that fail massively till i eventually got it to work, some times i had to disscet some C++ game source code to see how they approach things more efficiently :P

But i find it fun personally im sure others would lose patience very quickly. Then there is the networking using web sockets and long polling systems for "live action" between players, calling a server has to be efficient when you scale to many thousands of players, its difficult to know when making an engine, if it is the best it can be or if you have not heard about a better method.

I can assure you its ALOT harder than PHP if you use JS to its full capabilities. I'm not referring to things like Travian, which is heavy JS but it does not have a render engine, its simply manipulating the elements on the screen.

So yes JS is harder - depending on what you're using it for... if you use it to just make PHP browser game more slick then no.

Lol. Whats with all of these engines your using? particle engines? physics engines? Can you create a particle engine? Can you create a physics engine? (I says jokingly.)
Basically what you said in your first post is you should not be using the engine if you could not create it.

But whether you can create it or not engines are put there to save you the work of doing certain tasks. Realistically the main requirement you should have when using the engine is knowing how to use it, what it does, and how it reacts.

As of js being harder than php? What aspects did you find harder. Syntax? API? Cross Browser Compatibility? Scope? Other?

By the way... Specifically what language is this graphical engine being made in? Client Side(Web Browser) js or some other language/tool using js.

Collision detection? Not hard
Fractional pixel movement? As long as the language you are using supports it. Doesn't really take that much math skill.
Path finding? Not hard. Its mainly a matter of knowing where the object is not allowed or can not pass. Then looking for alternate paths.
Frame Rate? Can be kept stable by knowing how to deal with highly intense animations, graphics and other tasks.
Particals? Physics? Shaders? Already done by use of engine.

Not saying it's easy.. But it's something most good math scholars can do. It's Off-Topic but just trying to figure out what exactly you are aiming at with your engine... As graphical engine doesn't exactly point it out.

[KyleMassacre]

To be honest I totally disagree with that. Using open source things is fine. Take nbbc should I waste time creating something of my own for the same job or simply use what is freely available? I could create something similar but it's time wasting.

Of course understanding what's behind it, and how it works is important, but a lot of sites are based on a CMS for example. Do you think using CMS means you don't understand it? From what you've said I am getting that you're attacking those who simply use what's there, and don't learn. People that use engines do, most of time, learn as they improve it.

I'm simply saying this is a bad generalization to see.

I completely agree. I use whats available out there, I pay for mods, and I ask for help if I dont understand it. Im brand new to this field and I jumped right in and am trying my best to learn as I go as 99% of the development population has done. I'll admit that right now im far from being considered decent but then again its only been a few months since I have first seen a snippet of php or a even a db. Everyone has to start somewhere and ill bet my last dollar that everyone started from the bottom.
Now that I got that out of the way, I also agree that people probably shouldnt jump right into it as I did but how else is there to learn? You can only find so many errors/issues on a localhost by yourself. Just think if its just you going through every func, case, file, etc as opposed to 100 or even 30 people chances are yiu'll find any bugs or issues sooner than later, bite the bullet, learn from your mistakes and start again

[SirChick]

By the way... Specifically what language is this graphical engine being made in? Client Side(Web Browser) js or some other language/tool using js.

Collision detection? Not hard
Fractional pixel movement? As long as the language you are using supports it. Doesn't really take that much math skill.
Path finding? Not hard. Its mainly a matter of knowing where the object is not allowed or can not pass. Then looking for alternate paths.
Frame Rate? Can be kept stable by knowing how to deal with highly intense animations, graphics and other tasks.
Particles? Physics? Shaders? Already done by use of engine.

I consider each aspect its own mini engine that a "main" engine binds them all together, all made from scratch, and its client side JS or thats my aim i have only done about half of it so far. (I'm not looking forward to the particle engine part).

You say its not hard but JS manipulating graphic objects is rather new in HTML5, there are no real games that have mastered it yet because browsers still have not perfected a decent standard. Pixel detection for collision maps not really support by most browsers, there is a way to do it but it ain't efficient by any measure. - there for yes it is much harder - given browsers are only just allowing JS to use such powerful stuff now - it was not really possible before.

Path finding is quite hard but for different reasons - not so much the implementation but keeping it low intensity + making it look "human ish" and thats before taking into account any live action.

There are a few path finding algorithms to pick from, A* is often the favourite algorithm (used in Age of Empires) but the challenge is to make it non intensive. You also have to consider live action between people online means the obstacles are moving (aka other players moving), so you have to work that into it as well.

In C++, its not so bad you can loop a good half a million times a second, if a browser could do that = amazing, but it simply cannot lol so you have to think out of the box (maybe one day browsers will be able to execute code that well but C++ is always going to be more powerful i think).


Stable Frame rate is not important, what is important is keeping it "above" a level that people can detect as smooth. Ranges from 30 to 60. I aim for 60 FPS so i can afford to drop down alot but i put a cap at 60 as i don't believe you will notice much above 60, but all browsers draw at different efficient levels, thats before taking into account people's PC hardware so there is an extra issue to consider unlike conventional Window's games. When the game reaches 30 i have had to work out ways to make the game "ditch" unimportant stuff to keep the FPS up.. the issue with no doing that, will cause out of sync visuals to other players in a live interaction on a map...again there is limited information on this but the isogenic engine seems to have managed it so it is possible - i'll work it out eventually, i have been researching into web sockets to possibly solve the sync issues.

You say some of these things are not hard but could you make them from a blank page which is the point of the thread really, many simply would not because they could not (ignore the fact its waste of time - whilst it is if you have already learn it - it is not a waste of time to make it from scratch to learn it).

To make a graphics engine is easily 2 + years work in C++ its probably longer in JS due to limited information/examples and technology limits, so yes it is by far harder than a PHP browser based engine which can't do any of these fancy graphical things.

Particles? Physics? Shaders? Already done by use of engine.

Thats no good specially as im trying to make an engine - its all good relying on some engine, but again why not challenge yourself and make it from a blank page like myself, you learn a lot!!! After all what good is being a programmer if you don't learn how it all works Part of being a programmer is enjoying learning the stuff not just patching stuff together to make something work.

This is a nice attempt by some one :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlsipfu5Qq4

This is what inspired me to make my own.

Glacial Flame was later abandoned how ever due to too much work involved but the particle engine was quite good. When you consider its all in HTML and JS nothing else, same as many PHP browser games you already know of or play, its quite impressive, albeit performance wise its "so so" but it's getting there v.quickly!

[bluegman991]

You say its not hard but JS manipulating graphic objects is rather new in HTML5, there are no real games that have mastered it yet because browsers still have not perfected a decent standard. Pixel detection for collision maps not really support by most browsers, there is a way to do it but it ain't efficient by any measure. - there for yes it is much harder - given browsers are only just allowing JS to use such powerful stuff now - it was not really possible before.

When you say html5. Do you mean using the html5 DOM, or the html5 canvas?

Path finding is quite hard but for different reasons - not so much the implementation but keeping it low intensity + making it look "human ish" and thats before taking into account any live action.

There are a few path finding algorithms to pick from, A* is often the favourite algorithm (used in Age of Empires) but the challenge is to make it non intensive. You also have to consider live action between people online means the obstacles are moving (aka other players moving), so you have to work that into it as well.

Making it look human ish? Wouldn't that be the responsibility of the animation?
Pathfinders will be very intensive depending on how many paths there are and where you search.

In C++, its not so bad you can loop a good half a million times a second, if a browser could do that = amazing, but it simply cannot lol so you have to think out of the box (maybe one day browsers will be able to execute code that well but C++ is always going to be more powerful i think).

That estimate is pretty off. Both C++ and client side javascript can loop a few million times per second.

You say some of these things are not hard but could you make them from a blank page which is the point of the thread really, many simply would not because they could not (ignore the fact its waste of time - whilst it is if you have already learn it - it is not a waste of time to make it from scratch to learn it).

Yea I could do it... But what I was trying to figure out is why are you doing it. I have no estimate, but lets just say a lot of dedicated programmers have the skill to do put these things together in a short period of time. (Lol, getting more off topic.) Any way, was just trying to figure out what more your engine had to offer besides what you are thinking about while making it.(frame rate, collision detection at pixel level, fractional pixel movements, shaders, particle engines...physics engine, path finding algorithms.)

Thats no good specially as im trying to make an engine - its all good relying on some engine, but again why not challenge yourself and make it from a blank page like myself, you learn a lot!!! After all what good is being a programmer if you don't learn how it all works Part of being a programmer is enjoying learning the stuff not just patching stuff together to make something work.

You said you were using an engine to implement those features, so i didn't need to explain their complexity.

Glacial Flame was later abandoned how ever due to too much work involved but the particle engine was quite good. When you consider its all in HTML and JS nothing else, same as many PHP browser games you already know of or play, its quite impressive, albeit performance wise its "so so" but it's getting there v.quickly!

Again are you using DOM or Canvas? Also is it going to be 2d or 3d?

[SirChick]

Canvas and it has a combination of 3D and 2D - the 3D is mainly the characters and buildings, things like weather effects are 2D layered on top.

You said you were using an engine to implement those features, so i didn't need to explain their complexity.

I'm making the engine :P Not using some one else's.

What i mean by making it look humanish is the AI not the animation, animation is just down to the amount of work spent in a Render program. It could pick the shortest route every time, but the path might look a bit non human, specially in a isometric perspective, for example "clinging" to the edges of walls and following it, instead of staying more in the middle of the path it is walking on etc.

Yes it is intensive but you can reduce how intense it is with alot of tweaks.